Prospects Of Ukrainian Army Offensive On Donetsk And Lugansk People’s Republic

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Prospects Of Ukrainian Army Offensive On Donetsk And Lugansk People’s Republic

ILLUSRATIVE IMAGE: Forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic

Written by J.Hawk exclusively for SouthFront

Movable Object Meets Resistible Force

For the past several years, the war between Ukraine and the breakaway and still-unrecognized Donetsk People’s Republic and Lugansk People’s Republic has settled into a tense routine of attritional trench warfare, punctuated by sniping, clashes between patrols, small-scale raids, offensive minelaying, and ambushes using anti-tank guided missiles. There have been few operations by units larger than company. The front line has remained almost entirely unchanged. At the same time, both sides have been preparing for the possible next round of high-intensity warfare. What would happen if the fighting were to break out again?

That particular prediction is made more difficult by the very fact of the long lull in high-intensity fighting during which both sides have undergone a certain degree of transformation which remains relatively unknown to the other party. Both sides have seen certain material improvements, though apparently nothing dramatic. Ukraine’s armored vehicle fleet still relies on the same, but now even more worn out vehicles it went to war with in 2014. The planned re-equipment with the Oplot MBT never took place, and even the upgraded T-64BU Bulat was found to be flawed. Therefore the elderly T-64BV remains the main tank of Ukraine’s forces. Light armored vehicle fleet has seen some improvement thanks to domestic production and deliveries from former Warsaw Pact member states. If there is one area where Ukraine’s military may have made a major step forward, it is the artillery, using the large store of inactive weapons for Soviet-era reserve forces. However, artillery munition production continues to be a problem. While the number of Ukraine’s brigades has grown, the military experiences major problems with recruitment and retention, meaning that many of these brigades have the strength of a reinforced combined arms battalion.

Prospects Of Ukrainian Army Offensive On Donetsk And Lugansk People’s Republic

Click to see the full-size image

On Novorossia’s side the situation is hardly different. DPR and LPR units continue to use the same types of equipment they used during the campaigns of five years ago. The numeric strength does not appear to have changed much, either, and here too recruitment and retention remains a problem.

The other factor making predictions difficult is the level of morale of these two forces that have been bogged down in an apparently endless war that is beyond their power to finish. The combination of trench warfare boredom and terror means it is debilitating to the units’ morale and proficiency if they are forced to remain in the trenches for too long. While the most offensive-capable forces are kept out of the trenches as mobile reserves, they too can only maintain their state of alert for so long before losing their edge.

Paradoxically, this state of affairs give an advantage to the side that intends to go on the offensive, because the preparations for the attack and associated training would imbue the troops with the hope that, after the next big push, the war will finally be over. At the same time, both sides know such an offensive would be an exceedingly risky proposition, because if it fails, it will grind down the attacking side’s most effective units and render the army vulnerable to a counteroffensive to which it would not be able to respond.

Therefore the likelihood of renewed fighting also heavily depends on who actually makes the decision. While local leaders may be cautious enough, foreign ones in distant capitals may have different considerations in mind.

Only Biden could go to Moscow?

A big unknown hanging over the future of the Donbass is the position of Joe Biden, the Democratic Party nominee and the likely winner of the November elections. Biden has already played a highly destructive role in the politics of Ukraine and the US-Russia relations. It is Biden that blackmailed Poroshenko into firing the Chief Prosecutor Shokin due to his interest in the corrupt dealings of the Burisma energy company which infamously had Joe’s son Hunter on its board of directors. It is also Biden who held a lengthy, 30-45 minute telephone conversation with Poroshenko on the day MH17 was shot down and promptly came out blaming Russia for it, even as the wreckage was still smoking where it fell. Biden identified himself as a Russia foe much earlier, during the 2012 vice-presidential debates where he positioned himself as being “hard on Putin”, which in retrospect proved to be an early indicator of where the second-term Obama administration foreign policy would go. It also goes without saying Biden is an ardent promoter of the “RussiaGate” effort to paint Donald Trump as a Russian agent/stooge/fellow traveler/useful idiot.

The Ukrainian Armed Forces are sending military equipment to the front line:

At the same time, Biden’s line against China has hardened as well, which may have implications for US-Russia relations during the probable Biden presidency. As late as May 2019, Biden would describe People’s Republic of China as “they are not bad folks”, adding that “they are not competition to us”, comments that may yet come to haunt him on the campaign trail. However, once the COVID-19 broke out of control in the United States, Biden sought to out-do Trump in his accusations the high US death toll was due to China misleading the United States on the nature of the virus and not allowing US public health officials access to Wuhan and China’s epidemiology labs. Even before that, Hunter Biden resigned from boards of directors of China-based firms. While that might have been motivated by his, and his dad’s, desire to keep a low profile due to the scrutiny Hunter’s business dealings have attracted during Donald Trump’s impeachment proceedings, it may also have been preparation for Joe Biden’s anti-China pivot.

The emergence of PRC as Biden’s perceived number one international adversary may mean a desire to improve relations with Russia in the way that Trump, compromised from the start by RussiaGate and without a history of own anti-Russia rhetoric to fall back on, could never deliver. Biden, however, is in the same position as Nixon was in the late 1960s. His earlier anti-Russian rhetoric and actions now make him nearly immune from the same sort of accusations which, even though false, nevertheless effectively stuck to Trump. Nixon’s own enthusiastic participation in McCarthyite witch hunts made it possible for him to do what his Democratic Party predecessor Lyndon Johnson could not: end Vietnam War, engage in arms control treaties with USSR and “go to China” in order to exploit the growing divide between the two main Communist powers. Biden has the political capital necessary to repeat the process: end the war in Afghanistan (something he had proposed already as vice president), enter into arms control treaties with China and…go to Moscow, which is currently seen in Washington in the same way that Beijing was in the 1970s, namely the secondary challenger which needs to be peeled away from the primary one. Moreover, just as in the early 1970s, United States of the 2020s is wracked by a massive internal crisis requiring international retrenchment in order to focus on internal reforms.

Vindman Brothers Ride Again

But that optimistic scenario remains less likely than the prospect of renewed escalation. Nixon-era United States was not suffering from the hubris of American Exceptionalism. On the contrary, it was a country full of self-doubt and under no illusion concerning the limits of its power. It entered into arms control treaties because it did not feel it could win them. Disasters abroad and at home notwithstanding, the US elite still has not been shaken out of its complacency, and it does appear to sincerely believe it can win a strategic and conventional arms race against both China and Russia. We have not seen any indications so far that Biden intends any moderation in the area of foreign policy or returning to a policy of cooperation with Russia. One should expect that, in the event of Biden victory, Ukraine will launch an offensive against the Donbass shortly after the inauguration, in other words, in February or March of 2020. This offensive would accomplish two objectives for Biden. One, it would establish his hawkish, “patriotic” bona fides, make him look “presidential” in the eyes of the mainstream media and the national security establishment. Secondly, it would allow the US to exert even more pressure on Germany and other EU member states concerning North Stream and other areas of cooperation with Russia.

Drills of DPR senf-defense forces:

In order to achieve these goals, particularly the second one, the offensive would not need to overrun the Donbass, in fact, that would not be the aim at all. Rather, the goal would be to force Russian forces to intervene directly in support of the Lugansk and Donetsk republics to justify depicting Russia as the aggressor in the matter. And even if the republics’ militaries can cope with the UAF assault on their own, the sheer level of violence will still make enough headlines to satisfy Biden’s requirements. Whether Zelensky wants that kind of escalation for his country is almost irrelevant. Both he and Biden know very well what the balance of power in that relationship is. Ukraine is a failing state seriously dependent on foreign financial assistance in the form of continual IMF loans, debt rescheduling, favorable trade deals, etc. Biden knew how to use these levers to achieve an important change in Ukraine’s politics that benefited him personally, he will not hesitate to use them again.

Moreover, even if Biden were driven by the Nixonian motives described above, it’s doubtful the foreign policy Deep State would allow him to do that. Biden’s own conversations with Poroshenko no doubt contain great many embarrassing moments whose release would instantly embroil him in a massive scandal. The fact that Donald Trump was impeached solely due to the desire of national security apparatchiks to continue their pet war in Ukraine is indicative of their power to make foreign policy quite independently of their supposed civilian bosses.

Conclusion

While a Ukrainian offensive is relatively unlikely in 2020, its probability increases considerably in 2021, particularly in the event of a Biden victory. The conflict in Ukraine has lasted this long mainly because Ukraine’s current sponsors in the West are not interested in ending it, irrespective of what the will of the Ukrainian people might be. The situation will get even worse should the US presidency be taken over by someone with a well-established hostility toward Russia who believes his aims would be better served by another bloody campaign on the Donbass.

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Rodney Loder

Biden now represents a new detent all is forgiven by Neoliberalism that was in the old Obama era seeking to prolong unipolar US domination, however the homosexual Sid Loder lost credibility as being what I would become, so roll over Jew maggots your time is done.

occupybacon

Isn’t it a shame how the fate of the people from Donbas is decided by who is elected in Washington? That’s all a midget who loves expensive watches can do.

Rodney Loder

We’re all only privliged or disadvantaged by the role fate gives us an opportunity to be what we are, Gadaffi turned the tide Assad came in bit but only Brother Erdogan can push KSA / UAE out of ME leadership now USA is past history.

occupybacon

Brother Erdo or Brother Do. I wouldn’t mind if he gives it a try.

Rodney Loder

General Haftar will hafta think again Trump did now he’s sanctioning UAE for choosing wrong side in Syria after Trump picked Haftar to win in Libya.

AM Hants

Think you mistake Donbass for Kiev?

occupybacon

That too, however not by Moscow which is a chiken.

AM Hants

Chicken Kiev, don’t you mean?

occupybacon

Ahhh Kiev where tens if thousands of civilians with shovels bats and fireworks fought for months and defeated and disbanded the riot police with armored vehicles and guns. Sonds chicken to me. Btw is Putin still in his bunker?

AM Hants

You mean the Georgian snipers and the easily led, who turned down cheap gas, a $15 billion interest free loan, but, were more than happy with the free cookies, those old cookie monsters handed out. Whilst camping out in Kiev. They must be thrilled with how things turned out.

$oro$ wanted to erase the Ukrainian gene pool and I bet he never realised it would be so easy. All he had to supply, for the campers was a few free cookies and of course the cookie monsters, to hand them out.

occupybacon

Tell me more on how Soros erased the Ukrainian genes

AM Hants

Who funded the coup d’etat?

What did the Rand Corporation Guidelines demand?

occupybacon

I don’t know but for sure they didn’t demand you to take your pills today. Btw coups are made by officers and done fast, in a day or twi, or Maidan was a national struggle of tens if thousands of people that fought for months against some of the thoughest riot police in the workd. The little rat had a few months to figure out if Maidan is a coup so he could send backup or at least previously inform Ukraine govt if FSB heard of any “coup d’etat”.

AM Hants

Tell me about the cookies hunny.

occupybacon

I heared them screaming from your oven.

Ralph London

You don’t mention the Criminals In Action, why is that?

Jim Allen

Puppet Kiev.

Ralph London

Not puppet, more like zombie.

SnowCatzor

There is literally no chance of senile Biden ever winning the presidency, so I wouldn’t even bother discussing that hypothetical. The polls are garbage, we should all know that, and US Presidents rarely ever lose reelections. As for Ukraine, I think it’ll just stay a frozen conflict for a long while yet unfortunately. The Ukrainian military knows it can’t win, nor can the DPR/LPR claim much more land.

Harry Smith

The American society is hardly divided now because of BLM. About 58% does not support the BLM riots. So the main question of the 2020 election is not who will win, but will the other part accept they lost, at my opinion.

AM Hants

They have not acceptrd the 2016 results, so how will they accept the 2020 results?

Harry Smith

What if Biden wins?

AM Hants

Clinton or Obama back in and carry on as usual.

Harry Smith

Don’t forget about 2nd amendment which obligates militia to secure a free state and that Trump supporters are mostly so called “gun nuts”.

Ralph London

Who’s his vp?

Harry Smith

Biden said hi will name VP at Aug 1. Taking in consideration the current situation and Dems strategic narratives, VP must be black female.

Ralph London

Ugh! Don’t think hitlery will like that.

MikeH

It will probably stay frozen until the new gas deal expires in 2025.

Jim Allen

At some point Russia must face there’s going to be war. Russia wants a world it can trade with, but if something isn’t done soon, there’s not going to be much of a world to trade with.
The arrogant sociopath Globalists are pressing their de-population agenda hard.

occupybacon

Poor Russians, they just want money but others want to keep em all for themselves.

AM Hants

Which is why they have over $550 billion in currency reserves and a fifth of that is gold.

Remind me, how does the economy of Ukraine look?

Or how is the US going to pay back that $26 trillion national debt?

occupybacon

Or what percent of that foreign currency is in Dollars?

Lone Ranger

Around 2%.
Russia sold majority of its U.S. bonds at the end of last year.

occupybacon
Lone Ranger

Fake news…

occupybacon

Where does it say about the only 2% $US ?

Lone Ranger

Simple math…
$570billion reserves.
From that $ is below $10billion.
10% is $57billion.
5% is $28.5billion
2.5% is 14.25billion…

AM Hants

Do not think he does maths. Thanks for the info.

Ralph London

You’re just jealous, PIG meat.

AM Hants

Minimum, they dumped the majority of $US. Do believe they use a lot of Yuan and don’t mind the Euro.

occupybacon

You do believe so? How much is a minimum?

Jim Allen

It’s not, Zionists are destroying US from the inside. What do you think the Bolsheviks have been doing since they were run out of Russia ?

Cromwell

I don’t know how the economy looks but i know how Ukrainians Gold reserves look,they look like shit because they left the country about three Months after the Coup in the night from a provincial airport,not long after Yats left,they are probably in the US federal reserve like libyan gold.

AM Hants

One of the first things out of Ukraine, after the coup.

Ralph London

What about trump’s “We’ll just take it”? WTF is the usa doing in Syria, etc?

MikeH

Easy there, killer. Time is on Russia’s side.

Jim Allen

Yes, and no. Rusia will eventually prevail. But how much world will be left to trade with ? I’m certain Putin, and his administration know what they’re doing.

AM Hants

Russia has been prepared for that scenario, since President Putin first came to power. It is us in the West, who are not prepared.

Jim Allen

Yes, it’s not a question of Russia being prepared it is. Very well, too. It’s the Zionist’s escalating destabilization, slapping sanctions, and playing with Bio-Weapons, increasingly.
It’s The City of London, provoking war, US/NATO are puppets serving their Zionist Khazar masters. It appears to be the Banking Cabal Russia is after. Good choice.

AM Hants

Think Russia has good reason to say enough is enough to the City of London.

Jim Allen

Absolutely.

Assad must stay

Putin should have saved yanukovich and prevented all this maidan mess way back then

occupybacon

He wanted to but he couldn’t find his superhero cape that morning.

Cromwell

Well Yanukovich must have a lot of the blame,he allowed Insane McCain and Newland to fly into Kiev like they owned the place,he should have closed the Us embassy and refused entry to those scumbags.

Assad must stay

Yea that was stupid

Poppadop

“Saved Yanukovych,” how? The world oligarchs clearly wanted another Danzig Massacre where they could point to Russia overtly trying to stop the craziness and call it “Russian aggression.”

Assad must stay

What do u mean how? By not letting him be run out of ukraine

AM Hants

President Putin, rescued Yanukovich and family from the assassination attempt and they went straight to Crimea, which was still part of Ukraine, back on 22 February 2014, where they stayed, whilst they could.

Assad must stay

ah that is good i did not know that, is he still there? i hope one day he can return and lead ukraine again

AM Hants

Think he only stayed a week, but, reluctantly left. Think it was owing to nobody in Ukraine willing to communicate.

Assad must stay

Where is he now?

AM Hants

Here is the link to the video. Beginning focuses on the assassination attempt and rescue (around 6 minutes into the video and around 8 minutes President Putin explaining what happened). 1 hour and 24 minutes into the video, might make you laugh, when the USS Donald Cook comes across the Bastion Missile Defence System smiling at the ship.

EXCLUSIVE: The famous Russian documentary on Crimea with Putin FINALLY with SUBS… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mw4Y9jRwCQ

Assad must stay

Thanks mister AM Hants!

Ralph London

She’s a lady.

Assad must stay

oh my bad lol

AM Hants

No worries.

Ralph London

Hey AM, why did YOU upvote this?: ‘She’s a lady.’

AM Hants

Because I thought it was sweet and not often told I am a lady haha.

Ralph London

Bah. Self-promotion.
We’ll do the job for you, AM.

AM Hants

Ha-ha, carry on.

Ralph London

Will do.
P.S. Have you seen the article on that dumbfuck steele, mentioned in a BS (ghost written?) book by fluke harding, the guardian’s mi6 tool?

AM Hants

Yeah, I was going to share it later. Saw the Daily Mail version, but, did not have the strength to view the Integrity Initiative sponsored comments.

To finish off the comedy hour, Styx very kindly gave me a link to a Fiona Hill article over on the New Yorker.

Guess when they shut down the asylums, Maggie realised the intelligence services would be recruiting from Care in the Community. Only explanation.

Ralph London

Well AM, I really don’t want to read of any trash involving her.

AM Hants

Do not blame you.

Assad must stay

sorry Ralph London said you were a lady? if so sorry for saying mister

AM Hants

AMS, I am not precious and no problem. I am and always have been female, but, often on the site, can be mistaken as male.

Assad must stay

thanks, sorry again

Cromwell

Looks like an interesting vid,i was aware of the plan to ambush the convoy,you can imagine what would have happened if those Nazis had got hold of the guy,also the nazis would have been heading for Crimea to carry our more massacres if Putin hadn’t taken action.i will watch that vid when i have the time thanks for posting.

AM Hants

Although long, it is a good dicumentary. Easy to watch in small sections or if you doing something boring and need mental stimulation to make chore more bearable.

Ralph London

Best Ukrainian (still?) I know of would be former Rada MP Oleg Tsarev for PM, but unfortunately that won’t happen.

AM Hants

Seriously like him and also his work over on Stalker Zone. I remember back in 2014, the images when they beat him up. Think Psycho Billy was still around and hanging out with his good mate, was it Dmitry Yarosh?

AM Hants

He did save him, together with his family. Remember the assassination attempt? Crime Putin Documentary, explains a lot.

Assad must stay

no i dont, i should watch that thank you

AM Hants

It is a long, but, very good documentary. Starts off discussing how they rescued Yanukovitch, shortly after he signed the agreement, witnessed by 3 EU politicians and the history of the Crimea Referendum.

Cromwell

Yanukovich was as much to blame for what happened,he allowed that Maniac McCain and that bitch Newland to fly into Kiev like they owned it.he should have refuse them entry into the Country and thrown all those NGOs out.

Assad must stay

True, I did not know they did that while he was president

Dick Von Dast'Ard

Well no time like the present for the DPR and LPR to build their very own Westwall and for Russia to donate better artillery.

AM Hants

Do love their use of cauldrons.

Andreas

Yes, there is a probability of a Biden win in the 2020 U.S. election. But the analysis vastly overstates his influence should that occur. The U.S. is hopelessly fragmented at a social and cultural level. With regard to social and politically cohesion, it is at the lowest point since the Civil War of the 19th century. In short, the U.S. lacks the domestic support for any united effort to support Ukraine. At best, it would be a largely mechanical endeavor supported only through a facade of domestic propaganda as channeled by the U.S. mainstream media, a media also at an historically low trust level among the population.

Peter Moy

Unfortunately for the non-wealthy, non-political donation American public, the diabolical, murderous freaks who instigate foreign wars do not give a damn what they want or think. Anyone who thinks that the US political system is not a rigged suckers game is ignorant and delusional. How does a country with more than 330 million people only have two major political parties? The Democrats and Republicans are just two heads of the same rotten monster. For the US voter in November, the choice is between choosing to be raped by someone with AIDs or someone with Ebola.

Ivan Freely

The Electoral College have the final say on who becomes POTUS. Voting is meaningless in this case.

Raptar Driver

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.

Ralph London

In reality, it is neither.

MikeH

Perhaps you don’t realize but the people vote for the electors. It isn’t a direct vote but certainly representative.

Ivan Freely

Oh, I do realize that. Unfortunately, the general public don’t. It pisses me off whenever I hear complaints from the Progressives on Presidential elections. If they want real change, they have to spend more time on the State level. Instead these Progs want to change the Constitution (which I know is a cover to get rid of the 2nd) to implement Direct Democracy.

Poppadop

American disunity and opposition to wars were high before and during the previous world wars, too, but the world oligarchs found ways to “convince” people, didn’t they…?

And don’t think Trump’s policies will be different from Biden’s. The Maidanites did not get their Javelin anti-tank missiles from the Obama administration. I’m surprised the article never mentioned Trump era military aid like the Javelins.

AM Hants

Wasn’t Volker, Graham and others linked to the Javelin manufacturers? Which is why they were more than happy to flog the Javelin to Ukraine, under the guise of USAID or politicians petty cash funds.

Poppadop

Good point about our old “friend,” the military-industrial complex. Of course, if “drain the swamp” Trump wanted to stop the Javelins, he could have. Those are not like ex-Soviet, ex-Warsaw Pact weapons or American TOW missiles which have some air of plausible deniability. Javelins are advanced and restricted enough to only be obtainable via “official” American channels.

AM Hants

He could have done a lot to shut down US support in Ukraine, but, had no problem sending lethal weapons, which even Obama balked out and funds.

Plus Russia Gate, whenever things went his way, he would happily send a tweet, sending the media hysterical. Story ignored, then a fortnight later, back to Groundhog Day. He is a Vaudeville Act and pure show business Theatre. As the Mobsters play US all.

Ralph London

But WHERE will the Javelins end up? Sold to Syria, Libya? Etc.

Lone Ranger

Ukropnazis are a joke.
They always lose, why? because nazis are retards, especially wannabe toyboy nazis on CIA and soros payroll.
Aside from that Ukraine cant use its air force and without an airforce its wishful thinking at best.

occupybacon

Can’t use its airforce but the newly purchased drones should be tested.

Lone Ranger

Like in Syria?:)
Instant fail…

occupybacon

Yes, the war in Idlib is already over, Turks are back home, defeated.

Lone Ranger

Its inevitable.

occupybacon

I wouldn’t hold my breathe

Lone Ranger

I heard the same in 2015…

occupybacon

And war ended in 2015 for you

Lone Ranger

Nope.
In 2020.
Clean up operations ongoing.

occupybacon

Which day? So I can celebrate.

Lone Ranger

I will keep you up to date…

occupybacon

Don’t forget to!

David Price

Putin played with every Political opponent he ever faced and the reason is simple.Hes born for this life.The French UK and Germans dont try to play chess moves with him but Trump he plays with mentally and Biden is forgetting what year it is.
Look how he toppled NATO Saudi Qatar moves to try topple the Syrian Army and Bashar al Assad.When NATO special operations where defeated in the battle for Aleppo, the Country started to fall back into place.
Turkey is Russias junior partner in Idlib,how sad that Turkey with its massive resources couldn’t break SAA
I doubt rogue terrorist sympathisers in the Turkish Armywill try to back Al Qaeda again.
Erdogan will be over thrown eventually

AM Hants

Hear they fall from the skies with ease. How long does Ukraine manage to retain a drone for?

occupybacon

Not a single minute, they will be operated by NATO experts. Ukraine will watch and take notices.

AM Hants

Lol. NATO Experts. Remind me, how come Iran collected so many and had no problems with reverse engineering? Have those NATO members been collected from Donetsk Airport yet? Or are their kiddies still waiting for them to come home?

occupybacon

Awww.. the kids, you care of their kids. How about yours, ate em all?

AM Hants

No, my children are alive and kicking and know where there mum is. Not haunted by thoughts of parental absenteism /loss.

occupybacon

How many Ukrainian mums died in the airport?

AM Hants

Fighting the brave miners and farmers defending Donbass?

How many Ukrainian mothers and children were slaughtered by their Government in Donbass. Still remember many of the images.

occupybacon

Only Russian farmers and miners know to fire guided missiles.

AM Hants

Riddle me this, when have the brave of Donbass ever fired missiles?

occupybacon

In 2015.

AM Hants

2015, or was it 2014 when even CNN were reporting Kiev was using ballistic missiles on their people in the East. Have Donbass ever used the missiles firing at Kiev or to defend herself?

occupybacon

So they used them after all.

AM Hants

Kiev Government used them on their people in the East. When have the people in the East ever fired missiles at the Kiev or any part of Ukraine? Have they ever used missiles to defend themselves?

occupybacon

Miners and farmers downing planes with advanced Russian missiles, are you even interested if facts or arguing with me is your only purpose in your pitty life?

AM Hants

Oh yes, seem to remember the man pads taking down the military flights, over the territory of Eastern Ukraine. Which the brave miners and farmers were defending. Which is why it was so strange for Ukraine to send the MH17 over a war zone, despite requests to close down the airspace over the war zone.

occupybacon

Ohh you started to remember now… Anyway some of those planes were not downed with manpads but with radar systems that require training even for genius miners and farmers.

AM Hants

Manpads darling. The radar guided missile, that Ukraine were more than happy to show in the press conference, complete with serial number, had a missile passport, which showed that it was a 1986 Soviet Union missile used with the BUK system, that was despatched to Ukraine, where it stayed. It never even took a vacation to Russia, now did it? Ukraine even admitted there were none of their BUKS or missiles missing on 17 July 2014, remember?

Now riddle me, how would a miner or farmer, manage with only a 90 second window opportunity to recognise an aircraft, with the same radar image as President Putin’s plane, which Ukraine was expecting in the area, at that moment in time, have time to take it down?

occupybacon

Are there any more careers than miner and farmer in your tiny brain? See my reply to Ralphy.

AM Hants

Are you saying there are not many brave farmers and miners fighting for their people and territory in Donbass? Guess I left the industrial workers out of the equation.

occupybacon

You forgot the intellectuals.

AM Hants

Thought they were in the part of Ukraine nobody wants, owing to being unproductive and toxic.

Who do you call, when needing something fixing, an academic or skilled worker?

occupybacon

A whore. Just personal choice. You a farmer I guess.

AM Hants

Are you saying you are a whore and asking if I am a farmer?

occupybacon

Are you doing this, are you doing that? Go see if your kiddies are cooked in the oven.

AM Hants

So you can only get it, if you pay for it? Explains a lot.

occupybacon

Yeah, unlike you that gets everything for free.

Ralph London

As if the Donbass Defenders as part of ukaine pre 2014 never had military training, you stupid, ignorant pig.

occupybacon

No, dumb ass defender, I’m showing to my conversation partner that s/he can’t make personal arguments, just repeating simple headlines (miners and farmers). She was trapped by her own mind games now you broke our little game. So I was keeping that argument to give her but is even better that you gave it.

AM Hants

Riddle me this, but, besides the military trained members of Donbass, how many, with zero military training, joined the Defenders, in order to defend their people and land? How many were just your average miners and farmers and even kids, who had just left school, who volunteered to help?

Not conscripts, forced to fight their own people, by the Government of the day.

They were not recently released convicts, let out of jail by their Government.

They were not Nazis, funded by the leader of the European Jewish Community, Ukraine Branch.

They were just your average male members of Donetsk and Lugansk, protecting their people and land.

H/she, trapped by her own mind games, making personal arguments, using headlines????????

So are you saying there were no brave farmers and miners defending Donbass, from the actions and war crimes of the Ukraine Government of the day?

occupybacon

We were talking about who downeed planes not who can pull the trigger of an AK

AM Hants

No, you pointed me to your reply to Ralph, where you mentioned me and using headlines to include the wonderfully brave, miners and farmers of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Hence my reply, comparing the conscripts, convicts and Nazis, to the brave and mighty, defending their people and territory in Donbass.

Now remind me, why did Ukraine send the MH17 through a war zone, when requested to shut down the airspace, around the war zone? Especially when they were expecting a plane, similar colouring and radar image, around that time, to be returning to Russia, following a very successful BRICS summit.

occupybacon

Rofl you were explaining me how can a miner or farmer use AA missilrs.

Anyway you are saying that the Ukrainians confused the civilian plane with a Russian one, by the colirs if it, and they directed it to the war area?

Bruno Giordano

Now remind me, what was Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan for MH17? Wasn’t the plane flying where it was supposed to be flying according to that plan?

Who “sent” flight SIA351, flying from Copenhagen to Singapore, so close, flying 2 minutes behind MH17, heading to the same waypoint at the Russian/Ukrainian border?

Is it a fact that the airspace was not “shut down”? Wasn’t it closed up to 32,000 ft?

Who “sent” Air India flight AI113 “through the war zone”, approaching MH17 from the opposite direction?

Remind me, why would anybody want to take down a plane with “similar colouring” and [similar] “radar image” [whatever that may mean], returning from a “very successful [whatever relevance that has] BRICS summit”? Did he, or did his “accomplices”, have any information and confirmation that that plane had entered Ukrainian airspace? Wasn’t it flying a 1000 kilometers north of the war zone through Polish and Belarussian airspace, out of reach of Ukrainian ATC?

AM Hants

Groundhog Day. Why were the flight path recordings different, on the 17th July 2014 and few days later?

Do believe, 21st Century Wire, ran a decent article, MH17, One Year On, with details of the Flight Paths and how they varied, on various days.

It was a seriously good article, which I need to revisit.

Now why did Ukraine send the MH17 through a war zone, the day after a military cargo or was it transport flight was taken down? Frightening the international community, who wanted the airspace, through the war zone, shut down.

Bruno Giordano

Not of any importance or relevance, but they were not significantly different. As almost everybody has learned from the plots from Flightradar24 – the only flight tracking system with coverage in Ukraine and Russia. And I do remember that silly incoherent 21CenturyWire article very well, particularly the pictures in it that clearly stated that “at least part of the flights occurred outside of Flightaware’s primary service area”, as ignored by the publisher. When you revisit it, then please try to explain the idiot means with his analysis. In which airway was MH17 flying?

AM Hants

Didn’t President Putin receive a phone call, whilst flying over Switzerland, from Obama and then changed his flight plans?

Prime Minister Modi, returning from the same successful BRICS summit, was just behind the MH17, was he not? Do believe you referenced his Air India Flight.

Why did the oligarch, responsible for Ukraine aviation and traffic control, apologise for taking down the wrong plane?

Why did the pilot of the SU-25, who returned to base, minus his air to air missiles missing, also say he took down the wrong plane?

Bruno Giordano

You know that better, because as his personal assistant you know exactly when Mr Putin has phone calls and what Mr Putin says and hears. LOL. Anyway, it confirms that his plane did not fly over Ukraine and nobody had any reason, or possibility, to prepare an attack on his plane in eastern Ukraine. Good that you admit that; thanks.

Prime Minister Modi, returning from the same successful BRICS summit, was just behind the MH17, was he not? Do believe you referenced his Air India Flight.

No, he was not. His plane was 200 kilometers south. You believe that wrong. Air India flight AI113 came from the opposite direction.comment image
And, sorry for you, the oligarch did not apologise; he showed some empathy. But I realise that that word does not exist in your vocabulary. And Mr Voloshin never admitted, or confessed what you claim. It seems the man is declared guilty by the same people who complain that the currently accused and tried people are declared guilty before being judged.

AM Hants

Air India came from Birmingham. Nice to know. What is the flight path from Brazil to India? Which nations air space would the average flight fly through? I mean, considering Birmingham, England, is so close to Eastern Ukraine, is it not? Do not really care actually, just found the line comical.

Never been said his flight did fly over Ukraine, just that there were many, possibly with Python missiles who were expecting it. Now weren’t there?

I have posted the video of Kolomoisky stating the MH17

Bruno Giordano

Oh dear… I feel so sorry that you are unable to read, but it’s a trifle. Flight AI113’s Destination was Birmingham, hants. It came from New Delhi, DESTINATION Birmingham. East to west, hants. Crossed the Russian/Ukrainian border just before MH17 was blown out of the sky. Now, who sent it through that war zone?

AM Hants

Well, had no interest in the flight, being just a simple Hampshire Housewife. Whilst laughing at my error. I flick through your comments, with boredom, and having no interest in the flights, besides the MH17, SU jets and lack of the World’s Leading Statesman Plane. Hence taking no interest in either Singapore or Indian flight.

AM Hants

Sorry, cut off before finished. Koloimoisky, apologising, whilst laughing at the MH17, that was just a trifle? Wonder why he was laughing at the MH17 going down and why he said the following?

‘Apparently it was an incident. Nobody had any intention to take it down. Gave a shot accidently. Wanted to take on plane down, hit another one. It is totally normal, not bad,(whilst laughing). Sorry about the Boeing, about the people, it is just a trifle. You know, (unprintable) . Some serious stuff gets into prentice hands, and this kind of (unprintable) rubbish is a result. So you believe we (unprintable) did that? Generally no. There was another… ‘. Igor Kolomoisky courtesy YT.

Mr Voloshin, who later committed suicide, stated it, when returning to the airfield, as reported by the groundsman.

Glad you read the 21st Century Wire article. Would thoroughly recommend the work of John Helmer and Veteran’s Today, who seem to be doing a better job than PC in JIT.

AM Hants

Remind me, but, weren’t Ukraine, just days previously, told to shut down the airspace over the war zone?

Why did they refuse the request, by several nations?

Remind me, what is the ceiling zone of a SU-25, upgraded and with a pilot using oxygen?

Why was the MH17 requested to lower it’s height, by Ukraine air traffic control?

Why did Ukraine accept flights, knowing they had no primary radar working?

Who is responsible for Ukrainian airspace? For the safety of flight, passengers and crew? So, if Singapore flight in Ukraine, it would be the responsibility of Ukraine, who accepted the flight, with no primary radar working and not their neighbour, for the flight? Would it not?

With regards the flight plan, why were different routes shown, depending on the day you viewed them?

Bruno Giordano

Did anybody “request to lower its height”? Is that so? Who told you? What does the flight plan tell? What has the pilot discussed with the ATC? Would 10.0 kilometers or 10.6 kilometers really make the difference for your “upgraded” SU-25? If so, what a piece of picky crap…

With regards the flight plan, why were different routes shown, depending on the day you viewed them?

Why don’t you ask the airline; they make and file the flight plans. All I know is that they look at several factors; fuel consumption, the expected weather and the shortest possible distance – along a “great circle”- and that would be even further north – are just examples . And, after all, there wasn’t so much variation in the routes.

AM Hants

Drop from 33000′ to 31000′.

Ground hog day, 6 years of being stuck on the same roundabout.

At the end of the day, Ukraine accepted the flight, sent it through a war zone and ignored the fact the primary radar was down

Now why was the Air traffic control officer, responsible for MH17, was allowed to take a one way ticket out of Ukraine, without being interviewed?

Bruno Giordano

No drop at all. And not 33,000 / 31,000, but 33,000 where it should have been 35,000, which was why the ATC asked MH17 to climb.
comment image

Yes, accepted that flight and many others; not “sent” though. Remember, flight plan. Malaysia Airlines’ flightplan. And so did Russia, allow flights, “sending” them through the warzone. Oh, and it was just for that relatively small area that primary did not work. Secundary radar did work; gives much more information. Just no war planes (there weren’t any) and falling debris. Hadn’t the Ukrainian ATC contacted the Russian ATC, asking if they could see MH17 on their primary radar?

Responsible air traffic controller has been interviewed, according to the prosecutors. Declared in court.

AM Hants

You make it up as you go along, which is why they ordered her to lower her height. What was the ceiling zone of a Su25, upgraded and with a pilot flying with oxygen?

Bruno Giordano

Sorry, no, I don’t “make up” anything. What I write is based on facts. What are your statements based on? Fact is Malaysia Airlines’ flightplan, which tells that MH17 should have climbed to 35,000 ft (FL350) after waypoint PEKIT. Fact is that Ukrainian ATC asked MH17 to do so. Fact is that the pilot preferred to stay at 33,000 ft. Fact is that after a short while he changed his mind and asked for 34,000. Fact is that that was not allowed by ATC as that was not available (for eastward bound flights). Fact is that the ceiling altitude of an upgraded SU-25 is irrelevant as there hasn’t been any near the Boeing. And that in turn is based on another fact: Russia’s primary radar data. No fighter jets in the vicinity, upgraded or not. Again, what are your statements based on? 21stCentury? John Helmer? Where do they get their “facts” from?

AM Hants

Lol,lol and 6 years later, how many name changes have you gone through? I wonder why?

Bruno Giordano

Going personal? What are your statements based on?

AM Hants

6 years later, with many name changes on your part and still running the same script Bruno. God, it gets so boring.

Bruno Giordano

Right. The script of telling the truth, based on facts.

What are your statements based on?

AM Hants

Questions that need answers.

Bruno Giordano

Like the question why the Russians have been lying since day one?

AM Hants

What lies?

Bruno Giordano

Where shall I begin? The MoD press conference of the 21st of July?
– MH17’s path – false – contradicted a.o. by later released radar
– Movement of Ukie BUK installations – false – fake photo’s
– Fighter jet(s) near MH17 – false – contradicted a.o. by later released radar

AM Hants

JIT Press Conference, where they displayed the intact BUK missile, complete with serial number. Not realising the missiles came with missile passports.

Riddle me this, why did the DSB and, JIT investigations ignore the evidence from the BUK Manufacturer? They had nothing to gain owing to the fact they provided BUKs and missiles to the Soviet Union, Russia and Ukraine, did they not?

Why was their no forensic analysis on the shrapnel fragments within the entry and exit holes? Which would clarify DNA of missile, showing whether ground to air, air to air or a mixture of both?

Bruno Giordano

So you agree that the Russian MoD lied on July 21st, 2014 about the key points in their presentation. Good, that is step one. There was no strange deviation, the satellite photo’s showing Ukrainian BUK systems were fabricated and there had been no “foreign objects”, or more specifically fighter jets, near the Boeing – other than the separated parts, aka debris, of the plane itself.

Next step. The Russian MoD press conference on September 17th, 2018, where they showed – just showed on camera – the missile’s “passports” with inconsistent dates, with manually added marks. What they did not show, or even speak of, was the missing administration of the Soviets between 1986 and 1991. That press conference after which they provided photo copies, useless for forensic investigation. Doesn’t make it all very credible, after the experiences, a.o. with what this comment began with, does it? Sounds very much like the video tapes of the radar that they provided. Will they come with better analyseable data – in say two, three years – telling that the Soviet BUK’s had been moved to Russia?
Step three. “No forensic analysis”? Unfortunately I can not give links here as the post will automatically become “pending” – which means pending forever here. May I suggest that you go to “om.nl” and then to “MH17” and then to “forensic”. “Om”, that is the public prosecution’s office. They publish everything that they presented in court. Read about shrapnel, read about arena tests. You know what? I know what your reaction will be. You are not interested. Why not? Because you are not honest.

AM Hants

Zzzzzzzzz. So you expected Russia to wrap up what happened in Ukraine, when Ukraine accepted the flight? Ukraine sent it through a war zone, despite concerns from the international community and with no primary radar working.

Yet, you expect Russia to sort everything out, in a couple of days? I know Russia is good, intelligent, professional and upto speed, but, seriously just a couple of days to confirm and clarify all events that happened on 17 July 2014. Remind me, how long has it taken JIT to get nowhere?

Bruno Giordano

Well, rather than “sort out” or make up what happened in those couple of days, they could have waited for investigations, or, if they had them, publish true facts. Now they lied, with the clear purpose of sowing confusion and shifting the blame with false allegations. For rationally thinking people they failed and disqualified themselves. Ukraine “accepted the flight”, just like Russia “accepted” west-bound flights over the very same war zone. The international community was so concerned that over a hundred flights were planned to fly over that area, west to east, east to west, north to south, south to north. Must I repeat the examples of airliners that were flying there around the same time?

AM Hants

Make up, by showing what their operating, in full working order, satellite showed?

Remind me, what did the US satellite, which was actioned at the time show?

What did Ukraine’s primary radar show?

Why did Kolomoisky laugh, when saying it was a mere trifle, they took down the wrong plane? Did the victims find it a laughing matter?
Whose plane, similar colouring and radar image were they expecting?

Bruno Giordano

Make up, by showing what their operating, in full working order, satellite showed?

“In full working order” fabricated, photoshopped, combining images from other days.

what did the US satellite, which was actioned at the time show?

I don’t care. The US is not a party in this

What did Ukraine’s primary radar show?

There isn’t any. But after a loooong time Russia provided their primary radar, completely contradicting what the claimed (lied) in 2014.

Why did Kolomoisky…

Blah blah blah. Bullshit; apart from that not going to repeat what I already said about this.

AM Hants

Darling, think you mistake Belingcat for Russia.

Transverse reflection, so Goebbels, so last century. In the meantime, the world moves on.

Bruno Giordano

“In the mean time, the world moves on.” Right, hence the trial, which is moving on, as we speak.

AM Hants

Without the SBU having to present any actual evidence, just social media gossip, provided by Belingcat.

Now remind me, but, what does the Dutch legal system. State with regards Guilty beyond doubt?

Or will they go the UK way, and the Common Purpose formula? Abolishing ‘Guilty, beyond doubt’, with ‘Most Probably’. After all, a coroner conducting an inquest he was not legally trained to hold, introduced ‘Most Probably’ to the conclusion. Ignoring UK law and funnily enough getting away with it.

Bruno Giordano

Like you said, the world moves on, hants. I suggest you study the Dutch legal system yourself. It’s also worth studying the prosecutor’s documents, and/or listen to the hearings in court. Everyting available; the latter even in english. Fully transparent. But I know you are not going to do that. Too afraid to learn anything.

AM Hants

Źzzzzzzzzzzz

What does the Dutch legal system say about what a verdict should and should not be?

What does the UK laws on what a verdict should and should not be? Yet, a Coroner quite happily changes it, off his own back to ‘Most probably.

Will the Dutch go the same way?

No evidence produced in a court of law, besides hear say and gossip. No substantiated evidence has been provided by the prosecution, now has it?

Bruno Giordano

Blah blah. I suggest you study the Dutch legal system yourself. It’s also worth
studying the prosecutor’s documents, and/or listen to the hearings in
court. Everything available; the latter even in english.

AM Hants

What does the Dutch legal system state when it comes to what is and is a legally accepted verdict?

AM Hants

Is and is not a legally accepted verdict.

AM Hants

So, will the Judge accept the Defence request to call Major General Igor Konashenkov to testify?

Why doesn’t the Dutch Legal System allow the Defence the right to bring their witnesses and evidence to the trial, as a .after of right?

The only evidence, of the weapon of crime, comes from Russian military records. Ironicly the Ukrainian records were destroyed by fire, in the building holding BUK Missile passports. So the SBU is trying to claim Russia made up the BUK Missile passports, from Soviet Times?

Riddle me this:

Will they be using radar or salute evidence, from any nation? NO.

Will they be using NATO electronic signals, in their evidence?

Will they be using Dutch Military Intelligence, to confirm if the weapon was fired under the command of the 4 men being tried?

What did the autopsies that the SBU carried out on a selection of crew and passengers, show no evidence of BUK shrapnel fragments in the entry and exit holes?

Now, will the Judge allow the Defence Team to call Major General Igor Konashenkov to the trial a d guarantee his safety? If they refuse, bearing in mind the only evidence of weapon of crime, comes from Russian Military Records, then what will that say?

The case wraps up on 3 July 2020 and will the Dutch Courts be able to state ‘Guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, Despite providing no evidence rating to the weapon of crime?

Bruno Giordano

Ask the judge, study the Dutch legal system, study the prosecutor’s statements, study the defence’s statements. Next Friday 3 July. And many dates reserved after that.

AM Hants

Dutch legal system – acquit if you cannot find guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, or innocent of all charges.

When does trial have to end, a.c. wording to Dutch Law and not what politics dictate? Doesn’t the art day of the trial have to be 3 My 2p2p?

Can the Defence dictate who and what they can bring to trial or do they have to get permission from a Judge, including those with bias and opinion made up, before trial begins?

How long did it take The Hague to exonerate Milosovic of all charges, after his death? How long did they hold him prisoner, in his cell?

Bruno Giordano

Study the Dutch legal system. Milosevic exonerated? LOL. Haven’t we had this discussion before? One thing that you don’t seem to understand is that Milosevic and other Yugoslavia war criminals were tried in another (international) court.

AM Hants

He was exonerated by the UN of all charges laid against him. Wasn’t it back in 2015 or was it 2016?

His mate was interesting, with regards letting The Hague know what he thought of their trials. Stating he was innocent of all charges, taking the cyanide capsule and letting The Hague deal with his body, as he was sworn in.

Bruno Giordano

“Exonerated by the UN”? Keep dreaming

Bruno Giordano

Karadzic verdict

3460. With regard to the evidence presented in this case in relation to Slobodan Milošević and his membership in the JCE, the Chamber recalls that he shared and endorsed the political objective of the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership to preserve Yugoslavia and to prevent the separation or independence of BiH and co-operated closely with the Accused during this time. The Chamber also recalls that Milošević provided assistance in the form of personnel, provisions, and arms to the Bosnian Serbs during the conflict.11026 However, based on the evidence before the Chamber regarding the diverging interests that emerged between the Bosnian Serb and Serbian leaderships during the conflict and in particular, Milošević’s repeated criticism and disapproval of the policies and decisions made by the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership,11027 the Chamber is not satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented in this case to find that Slobodan Milošević agreed with the common plan.

That’s the whole “exoneration”, Hants IN THIS CASE. In other words, no exoneration.

The Trial Chamber did not in fact make any determination of guilt with respect to Milosevic in its verdict against Karadzic. Indeed, Milosevic was not charged or accused in the Karadzic case. The fact that a person is, or is not, found to be part of a joint criminal enterprise in a case in which he is not charged has no impact on the status of his own case or his own criminal responsibility.

In short, the trial against Karadzic was against him and him only, and therefore has no impact on the separate case against Slobodan Milosevic

(Discussion 3 months ago)

AM Hants

Are you talking about the 2,500 page verdict?

Remind me, but, what does Paragraph 3460 state? You know, the paragraph the Western media ignores?

Does it not say that Milosevic was acquitted of suspicions and war crimes in Bosnia?

Why did paragraph 3288 state that he must be protected?

In 2000, didn’t the UN Court officially state there had been genocide in Kosovo. So they had to change the charges against Milisovic, to try and involve him in what was going down in Bosnia.

The way he was treated was so similar to what happened with the MH17. He was charged for political reasons and then the hunt was on for evidence, to fit the political view.

In fact, wasn’t Misivic a devoted Socialist, who actually believed in a multi-racial and multi-ethnic Yugoslavia?

So what did he do to upset his Glibalist puppet masters?

Bruno Giordano

Paragraph 3460 in Karadic’ verdict. Exactly what I cited.

the trial against Karadzic was against him and him only, and therefore has no impact on the separate case against Slobodan Milosevic

If you want to believe that he was “exonerated”, believe what you want to believe. But, as in so many other cases, you are wrong.

AM Hants

You just left out paragraph 3460. Selective Bruno or what?

Bruno Giordano

No, I did not and no, I am not. Check previous comment.

AM Hants

2,500 pages of the document and I sure as heck did not see all 2,500 pages of the document in your comment, especially Paragraph 3460. Or was I missing something. Now remind me, but, what did the Western Media miss out, when they failed to report on paragraph 3460?

AM Hants

file:///C:/Users/Anne-Marie/Downloads/160324_judgement%20(2).pdf

………………..

Pages 1235 – 1245 cover Milosovic, in the lengthy document. Showing why the chamber were not satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented in this case to find that Slobodan Milošević agreed with the common plan.

How long was he kept in a cell in The Hague and where did he die?

Bruno Giordano

Nowhere says that he is exonerated. Only conclusion in paragraph 3460

“The Chamber is not satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented IN THIS CASE to find that Slobodan Milošević agreed with the common plan.”

AM Hants

Why did they hold him in a cell in The Hague, for over 11 years, or in his case life? When they exonerated him? The fact it was such a high profile case and all they had thrown at the man, to find there was no evidence that they could charge him with, is the same as exoneration the man.

Bruno Giordano

“They” did not exonerate him. Fact

AM Hants

Auto correct corrections.

Evidence to the trial as a matter of right.

Major General Igor Konashenkov to the trial and guarantee his safety.

Bruno Giordano

Study the hearings in the trial, forget what Helmer makes of it.

AM Hants

Riddle me this, but, why do the prosecution believe that it is virtually wrapped up? Whilst the Defence has its of questions that need answering. Not just with regards the military jets, shadowing the MH17, but, also the BUK system. Together with at least 100 witnesses, who wish to be listened to?

Courtesy The Hague Court Site.

Bruno Giordano

“Wrapped up”? Is that why they (just this afternoon) have reserved so many weeks for the trial till far in next year?

AM Hants

So, they are going to let the defence present their witnesses then,
Starting with the Major General?

Bruno Giordano

Ask “them”

AM Hants

You seem to be the voice of The Hague, so assumed you could easily answer the question. Oh, the irony of that thought.

Bruno Giordano

Or find the long list at the “what happened to flight mh17” site (Link apparently blocked by SF)

Ralph London

Listen you stupid & ignorant dumbfuck pig, the Donbass Defenders are being ATTACKED; kiev is NOT being attacked by them.

Have you EVER stood in the communal hallway of an apartment block to be told that the window was blown in by kiev SHITS, THREE times???

occupybacon

Damn! I hate to be told lies. Sorry man.

Ralph London

Where do you think the contact line is: in kiev, or near Donetsk city? You don’t know your arse from your elbow.

Ralph London

Yes, the kiev nazis used them.

occupybacon

You mean Berkut

Ralph London

No I didn’t, but trust YOU to be so confused with your lack of comprehension.

Ralph London

No.

Ralph London

They are clever enough to be trained.

occupybacon

Nor clever enough to not be assasinated.

Ralph London

You’ve got some very weird, fucked-up thinking.
The Donbass Defenders have got every RIGHT to defend themselves, especially since the coup in kiev happened by yet another satanic usg ‘color revolution’.
And are you such an ignorant SHIT – obviously so – that the fucked in the head ukrainians esp nationalists consider the Donbass people as Untermensch and Colorado beetles, and worse, and I am 100% backing the Donbass people, and 100% against those fucked up ukrainian shits.

occupybacon

Donbas has sent its backups for Berkut to kidnap and torture protesters in Kiev, they deserve every bomb.

Ralph London

You’re talking shit.

occupybacon

You started first.

Ralph London

I know what’s going on in the Donbass and why it started etc, and I’ve been deeply involved with the Donbass for nearly 6 years now. So my knowledge and experience is based on relevant facts.
You, on the other hand, are just a dumbfuck with a stupid name, PIGface. And don’t forget, pigs are filthy animals which will eat anything, like you.

occupybacon

Please don’t cry little girl, here’s a Nuland cookie for you :)

Ralph London

You’re such an uncomprehending moron with the IQ of a pig.

occupybacon

Ok, other than The Good Forces in Donbas fight the Devils in Kiev, do you know more?

Ralph London

You didn’t bother to read PNAC, did you?

occupybacon

Thanks for pointing me this one, so the group behind the war in Iraq and 9/11 perhaps. I have to read more about. Yeah they make Dumbas look like angelic children by comparison.

occupybacon

Sorry lady, I didn’t know you’re so sensitive

Ralph London

Says the dumbfuck moron pig who upvotes criticism of itself.

occupybacon

It’s a level you couldn’t understand.